Thursday

How will I be remembered?

One thing that I always wondered, and actually have never known, is how women have really perceived me for having the fetish. It is amazing, after 22 years of relationships, that this is still completely unknown to me. It partly has to do with the simple fact that we never really know what anyone thinks of us. We never know what people say about us to others. We don't know. And even if I ask you, and you tell me, it does little to convince me. We do know that women will discuss each others' sex lives. We certainly know that men will discuss them as well. Generally speaking, the more intimate the detail, the fewer people will know. And also, generally speaking, the fewer the problems in the relationship, the fewer discussions will be had with people outside the relationship. Right?

So, one thing I have always wondered, and actually have ever known, I repeat, is how women have really perceived me for having the fetish. I am resisting the urge to put a smiley face, since that was supposed to be funny, but using emoticons sort of takes away the right to call oneself a serious writer, I think.

The reality is, you just can't think about it. You can't. Because if you do, you'll go crazy. If the girl who likes to wear a leash and be walked around the bedroom floor, while barking, had to think about whether all of her guy's friends know about this, every time she hangs out with them, it would be mortifying. Much the same, if I had to think about the fact that some of my girlfriend's friends might know that I am completely mesmerized by smoking, I would probably crawl under a rock from embarrassment. I could construct these paranoid fantasies where I walk in the room at a party, and everyone is putting their hands over their mouths and pointing at me, and giggling, and girls are pretending to take a drag on an invisible cigarette and then rolling their eyes at me. Surprisingly I have never had such dreams. Instead, I have dreams that I can't find the building for a class on my college campus (I haven't been in college for years), or that all of my teeth are crumbling.

But it is still interesting to me to know, when it comes to a fetish, are special rules applied? Do partners take respectful caution about discussing it with their friends? Or is it no different than discussions of impotency, or premature ejaculation, or any other issue that might be present in a relationship, i.e. they're going to talk about it with their friends, and you just have to accept it.

I used to tell girlfriends, "Please don't tell anyone about this", but I pretty much have stopped doing that, for a few reasons. First, I think it's an unrealistic promise to make them keep. And second, because if they try to keep that promise, they're depriving themselves of what may be much needed support and advice. We need our friends to help us. And while it is best to deal with relationship problems within the relationship, it often does require an outside ear to see things objectively. In my most recent relationship, in fact (though I am a long way from getting to talking about that one), I have explicitly said, "I understand and respect that you may find you want to talk about this with your closest friend(s), and I only ask that you use your own best judgment and discretion". I think that's the right way to go, because it avoids the need for them to deceive you, and it also gives them permission to do what they might need to do.

Nobody has ever told me that I am weird, when I told them I had the fetish. They may have thought it, but they never said it. Nobody ever told me that I was perverted. Maybe one or two people said it was unusual. Most, surprisingly, thought it was at least moderately interesting. I think for many, also, it became slightly less interesting when they realized how much of my psyche could, potentially, become obsessed with the topic. It can get tedious. And in relationships where things were not as good, I think it may have slid further and further into the foreground, because there was not much else left to hold onto.

And I do wonder, when those relationships were ending, if lots of beans got spilled, and if I got ridiculed behind my back, or if my soon-to-be-ex-girlfriends' friends, in reassuring tones, reminded these various girls that I was a freak, or odd, or that they didn't need to put up with that crap, or that I clearly had some issues. The kinds of things you say to your friend when you're trying to help them get over someone.

But the reality is, if it were not the fetish, there would have been other topics about which the same discussions would have occurred. The fetish may be an obvious "trait" of mine, that might even set me aside from other people that they've dated. But for all I know, the fetish may not be the thing that these women remember most, when they think back about that difficult or unsuccessful relationship they had with me, three, five, ten, or twenty years ago. It may be far more likely that it was my moodiness, or my self-absorption, or my temper, or my manipulation, or my big mouth, or my insensitivity, or my inability to commit. Who knows?

Nonetheless, all that aside, I wonder still, years later, whether these women will think, when asked to say the first thing that comes to mind about that guy that they dated so long ago, would they say "Oh yeah... I remember him... he had that funny fetish with smoking... that was so ridiculous... I don't know what I was thinking when I dated him".

Sigh... the mind never sits quietly.

18 comments:

  1. Today I searched the internet to see if I could find a statement of what it is like to have this fetish and how a man who has this thinks and feels. I just finished reading your blog. You wonder today how the women have felt. Here is my timely story. I'm a woman with a close guy friend for 6 months. In the past 2 there has been a shift towards maybe more than friendship and I have been feeling myself falling for him. He invited me to stay at his house and suggested I sleep in his bed when it got late. It was clear he preferred that I not go to the guest room. Then he started asking me over each week to eventually sleep in his bed. He said he wanted to not ruin our relationship by becoming intimate but started doing things around me that turned me on like walking around with just his boxers on even after I politely asked him not to because I found it kind of erotic. He told me that sex had ruined decent friendships. I could see his mentioning it was very painful so I didn't decided I'd let him touch me if he started feeling ready. A few days ago I stayed over. In the middle of the night I woke up. He was stroking my arm and telling me he liked me and he did not want to ruin our relationship. He rolled over and said, "Can you put your arm around me." I, half asleep, put my arm around him and asked, in sleepy inocense, "Did you have a dream?" He said no. I just felt confused and eventually went back to sleep. In the morning he was going out of town for a couple weeks. He gave me his key and told me to eat things in his fridge. So prepared some food later that day, sat down and turned on his DVD player. He had left smoking erotica in it. It was about ladies smoking. Some of it while a man had intercourse with her and some of it just various women smoking and looking at the camera and being kind of dominant. Anyway, I have spent two days with all sorts of feelings and thoughts going through my head from, "how could he start moving things in this direction when he knows I am a health nut who has never smoked?!" to - "would I be able to smoke for him?" Is this why he is not kissing me? Am I some kind of "good girl" who he never has sex with but "bad girls" who smoke he does? Also, I did not find watching the smoking porn attactive. It felt like the women were not involved with having sex. They looked bored and more interested in their cigarette or their wine than the guy at their feet watching them or the man having sex with them. Would I have to look bored and smoke to interest this guy rather than respond passionately and with both hands? That would not fit with my own feelings. And finally, did he give me the key and tell me to eat what was in his fridge while leaving this in the DVD player in the hopes that I would figure this out? This sex feels less intimate to me. Like the sexual trigger for him would not be me - but something that any woman could do - and many better than me. Also, I don't enjoy cigarette smoke so it would really be something I would have to do for him despite it not being good for me. I would have to practice. I would have to risk getting addicted. If I don't do it for him and other women do I feel left out, jealous and rejected for who I am. It hurts. Why doesn't he only see smokers so I did not have to end up feeling so unattractive and like I cannot "do" what he needs and be myself? I don't want to confront him with all this because I think he already feels lousey about things as it is and I don't want to hurt him or make him feel shame. I just feel like I would have liked to know earlier before I started having feelings for him. Anyway, sorry for the book but that is one answer to your question today about how do the women feel. I have not called a girlfriend to discuss it partly because I feel that he must feel it is very private to not have mentioned this yet to me. If you have any ideas or advice even if offline I would appreciate any thoughts about how to handle this sensitively from the other side...

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  2. Thank you for posting here. I am happy to discuss this either here, or offline. If you want to take this offline, email me at this blog's email address, which is smokingfetishblog@gmail.com, otherwise I can post here. It might be a day or so before I can give you an appropriately detailed reply.

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  3. I will write to you offline. I don't want to side-track the story of your blog.

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  4. To Ms. Anonymous, I can say this: your boyfriend was probably right the first time, in concluding that becoming sexually involved has damaged his friendship with you. Maybe it can be repaired, and maybe not.

    Porn is not intimacy, _especially_ not on the shooting set. Of course the girls look bored and detached a lot of the time...if they were good enough actresses to successfully pretend to be emotionally involved, they wouldn't be working in porn. To them, it's just a paycheck, and most of them aren't even as good at pretending to actually give a damn as is the average office temp. This, I think, will be especially true in videos that feature explicit sexual content, since the models have an extra incentive to stay detached from the action. (After all, if you're just sitting on a couch smoking cigarettes, it's pretty much what you're doing on your own time anyway, except with a rolling camera now and a wad of $20 bills later. If you're screwing some guy, you have to contend with the fact that you're basically selling your sexual favors for cash.) So the fact that the girls look bored in your boyfriend's porn doesn't mean that's what he wants from _you_.

    In fact, your description of his actions with you implies very strongly that what he wants in a relationship is precisely the opposite of that. If you started smoking regularly, he'd undoubtedly be thrilled, but otherwise what you're already giving him is probably exactly what he wants from a woman, can't possibly get from a DVD, and isn't currently even getting a simulation of it from his typical suppliers of porn.

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  5. As for my own experiences...well, I've never become sexually involved with a woman who didn't already know about my inclinations, and only once with one who didn't already smoke herself. (She started within a couple of months after, and we're now happily married! :) )

    Of course, for my first couple of relationships, the phrase "smoking fetish" hadn't yet been coined (since like all of us, I thought I was alone in the world at the time), but I still managed to get the point across. The attitudes of the women, while I've been dating them, have ranged from "eh, whatever...I've dated folks with way weirder kinks than that" to "OHMYGODTHATISSOFREAKINGCOOL!!! You mean I can turn you on THAT MUCH just doing something I already do all the time ANYWAY????!!!! COOL!!!". The latter type may have disparaging things to say about me in general, but I doubt the smoking thing is ever referred to that way. The former...well, I have no way of knowing, but in the pantheon of sexually weird boyfriends, I doubt I rate very high. If anything, I suspect they're _less_ likely to talk about me, just because to them, I was boring.

    If I had a fear of exposure, I might worry. But for me, of course, that ship sailed a long time ago, since I went around creating newsgroups and message boards under my real name. But really, when there are guys running around out there who want to handcuff their girlfriends to the bedposts and pee on their faces, I don't think any of us really rate all that much scorn from the estrogen grapevine.

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  6. Anonymous,

    Try not to internalize it too much if you can. He may have left the DVD in there on purpose; perhaps not.

    The first problem you may face, though, is in seeing porn or porn actresses as competition or as someone he expects you to emulate. That is the case with some men, but speaking for myself, porn is porn and my wife is my wife. The two don't have overlap. Porn fills the gaps for me, and keeps me happy when I'm pleasuring myself. It doesn't factor into my sex life directly, and it neither detracts from it nor enhances it.

    The other thing is the smoking. He might prefer that you were a smoker. He might even secretly desire that you start smoking. He may not care. In dating women over the years, I didn't focuse on smokers alone, and when I dated a non-smoker, it never crossed my mind that I would want her to smoke.

    Now, if you do get involved, and you do decide you want to try smoking for him, that is your choice. But getting addicted to cigarettes under that scenario is unlikely, unless you already have an addictive personality. It is very, very possible to simply be a social smoker. I have known many people who only smoke, for example, when they go out to have drinks on the town, and they never smoke otherwise. If you decided to smoke as an occasional thing as part of teasing, foreplay, or actual sex, I cannot imagine how such infrequent use of the cigarettes would "hook" you. Because, I presume, you wouldn't use them every time or even close to every time...and most smoke fetishists don't NEED the smoking to get aroused or climax...mostly, they just like to be able to get it on a regular or semi-regular basis to spice things up.

    Hell, I'm married to a smoker and RARELY get smoky treats. Very rarely.

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  7. One response to Matt:

    I think that it is probably inaccurate to assume that he would be overjoyed if you started smoking all the time. In fact, if he is conflicted about it, there might be some element of it that he would want to remain a sort of "blessed taboo" - namely, something that only happens rarely.

    And a response to Smokedawg:

    I am not sure I believe that there's no risk of getting addicted if you don't want to. It may be true that the physical addiction is much more difficult if someone does not have a naturally addictive personality. But I think the psychology of knowing that there's something that could have this "power", might make a person dabble in it more than they perhaps should do. And if one is not very careful, could end up other than as expected. That said, I agree with you that he very well may have no intention or desire to have a non-smoker girlfriend become a smoker, and I believe that's a respectable and preferable objective.

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  8. Thank you Matt and Smokedawg for your thoughts about my situation... I have to admit that hearing that both of you ended up married to smoking women does not get my hopes up.

    I know this guy and care about him and if I know from the start that we could not have a long term relationship or marriage because we are sexually incompatible I don't want to become sexual with him. I would want to get out of it with as little of my heart broken as possible if that is the case.

    I want to make it clear that it is not the fetish that is my problem. It is that I don't smoke. I have had guys be very interested in my breasts or my hair but because these are part of who I am, I don't feel like the man does not find me attractive enough.

    I care about this guy and he has been inviting into his bed but not kissing me for a while, I am feeling very vulnerable about whether he finds me attractive. My only hint is that he keeps wearing only boxer shorts after I asked him not to because I find it erotic. But I don't know if he generally finds turning a woman on appealing or if he finds turning me on appealing. I may have to ask, "Are you wearing only shorts again after I told you it turns me on because you want to turn me on, or because generally you like the idea of turning a woman on and it is nothing personal, or you don't think I should have the right to ask you to wear more clothes when we sleep together platonicly?" I know... kind of complicated.

    This guy does feel like the most complicated guy I have ever wanted to be close to. To try to give you guys an idea of what I am going through, imagine that you were attracted to a woman who you had been close friends with for 6 months and she started inviting you over and asking you into her bed and put on a tiny see-through teddy but told you very sadly that sex had ruined past relationships. You don't grab her and kiss her because you care about her and want to be sure she is ready and wanting that. You tell her - later not in bed and on neutral ground - that it would be easier to stay platonic if she wore pajamas instead of see-through teddies to bed because you do find her attractive but don't want to be tempted. She still invites you into her bed and wears teddies. You get in with her because it is damn hard to resist but don't touch her per her statement about sex ruining things.

    I feel like what Perplexed said about this fetish having a manipulative quality to it may be true in the case of this guy.

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  9. I would have to agree with Perplexed about the "no-risk" of addiction, although I come from a very different place. There is always a risk of addiction and I think that no one can be entirely sure about how their body will respond to nicotine. But, you cannot become addicted overnight or at least not unless you want to. Of this I am fairly certain. Despite the power of nicotine, you have to get over all of the unpleasant side effect/ aspects of smoking before you can truly enjoy it and in my opinion no one continues to smoke unless they truly enjoy some aspect. Sure, nicotine is eventually what keeps people smoking but there has to be some additional payoff in the beginning or people would not continue to smoke.

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  10. Our Host is correct that I can't speak for Ms. Anonymous' boyfriend. It's possible he doesn't actually want her to smoke. If he's one of us and doesn't want her to smoke, I'd say he has some major issues that need to be resolved in his head, but that's certainly not uncommon. The Madonna/Whore complex takes form in many guys' minds in many forms.

    Either way, though, if you don't want to start smoking, don't start smoking. Regardless of what he wants, you have to make this choice for yourself.

    If you do start smoking, even just for him, expect to get sucked in. Physical addiction is not as hard to avoid as anti-smoking zealots paint it, but if smoking becomes inextricably linked to your sex life (as you seem pretty sure it would have to be, and I tend to concur) you will surely become very, very attached to it psychologically. Smoking will become a part of you. And if you decide to quit, it will be way harder and more painful. Physical withdrawal, even if it occurs, is nothing compared to the trauma of ripping off what's become an important part of your psyche.

    I speak from experience here. I've been smoking since I was 14 years old. Despite several extended periods of total abstinence from nicotine, some lasting many months, I've never ceased to think of myself as a smoker. During a period of abstinence, I'd always be a smoker who for practical and external reasons couldn't smoke. If I were ever to actually try and become a non-smoker, it would probably break me. This is not a symptom of nicotine withdrawal...I've been through that, and it wasn't nearly as bad as people make it out to be. It's because I came out the other end of that withdrawal still a smoker, because being a smoker is such a huge part of who I am. If you start smoking in order to participate in your boyfriend's sex life, it will become part of who you are too, in much the same way it is for me, and thus you'll end up far more attached to it than most smokers are.

    I am not, by any means whatsoever, telling you not to start smoking. It would be fair to say that, as long as you have the requisite girl bits, I'm absolutely in favor of you starting smoking, in principle, even though I don't know you and probably will never meet you and certainly wouldn't recognize you even if I did happen to pass you on the street while you're taking a smoke break from work 15 years from now. In the abstract, I want all women to smoke. But don't do it just for him, and don't do it at all until you've at least had this talk with him. Getting advice from strangers on blogs is all well and good, but Our Host and smokedawg and I (and, for that matter, you) all put together are still just a bunch of people guessing about what's really going on in your boyfriend's head.

    He'll be embarassed. He should be able to deal with that. If his embarassment, or some other reaction of his to your bringing up this topic, leads directly or indirectly to the two of you breaking up, then that alone is sufficient proof that breaking up would be the right thing to do. If you were already a smoker I might not take such a hard line about this, but for a non-smoker to get into a relationship with a smoking fetisher who isn't psychologically mature enough to engage with his fetish intellectually and talk about it with his girlfriend can't possibly lead to good. If you already smoked, it would be possible (still not likely, I think, but possible, and anyway moot, since you're not) that you'd have time to work up to that talk gradually, over the course of years. But you're not, and so you don't.

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  11. I've only dated one non-smoker in my life, and she started smoking while we were dating, and now we're happily married. But I was very open with her about the fetish. We had our first discussion about it during our very first meeting, which took place about seven years before we even dated. Once we started dating, we talked about her emotional relationship with smoking, her memories of relatives and friends who smoked, and eventually about her psychological attraction to smoking, which she'd repressed for her whole life to date in order to keep peace with her non-smoking mother and grandmother. I told her about what I was, what the smoking fetish is all about, and about the differences between my relationships with erotica and my relationships with people. And I made sure she knew the real risks she was taking, before she had her first puff. Not lung cancer and emphysema...any idiot can read about those on the side of the pack. I'm talking about the psychological risks.

    Now, I'm not saying your boyfriend is an untrustworthy ass for not being as open and forthcoming about the issue as I was then. By the time we got to that depth of conversation, I'd already been one of the major public faces of the smoking fetish community for most of my adult life. I'd been quoted by name on the front page of the Wall Street Journal, interviewed for an extensive piece for the Boston Phoenix, quoted unattributed in at least two books from major publishers, and been the founder of three Usenet newsgroups, and five message boards, along with a partner in or major consultant to several businesses serving the smoking fetish community. I was, as much as any human can be, used to it, and I wouldn't presume to hold him to the same standard.

    But it would have been wrong for me to marry her without having those conversations. And if your boyfriend isn't going to start them, then you'll have to. And you definitely should. Whatever outcome they lead you to in your relationship with him is by definition a better outcome than would be possible if they didn't happen.

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  12. I agree with Matt. The psychological aspect is far, far harder to break than the physical aspect and I think I have been a "psychological" smoker for far longer than I would have previously cared to admit to myself. I can deal with not smoking for long periods of time (years even) as long as I know I will one day smoke again.

    Matt gives some good advice. Honesty is the best policy in relationships.

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  13. Thank you Matt and Closet... I think your thoughts hit the nail on the head for me. If I felt that my smoking was what attracted a man I care about I would be scared of becoming addicted to it for just that alone. The nicotine etc would just be the final straw. I bought some cigarettes and tried it yesterday and I could feel the thought of his finding me attractive and openly returning my feelings pulling me in...

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  14. I should emphasize that I don't think there is not risk of addition. My premise was that addiction is unlikely if one smokes very, very infrequently. I can't speak to the extent of the boyfriend's fetish. Myself, I'm happy if I get occasional satisfaction for my fetish (which is good, because that's all I get). This guy may be someone who needs/wants much more.

    There are tons of red flags here relationship-wise. The intimacy/distance dynamic alone is something to be concerned about, much less sexual compatibility either non-fetish or fetish-wise.

    I will say that this guy's behaviors actually strike me more like a couple women I have known (not involved with personally) who had a really close guy friend and had said guy sleep in their bed from time to time and never kissed them nor initiated or invited any sexual contact. It is a dynamic in which you have that great friend you know is attracted to you but you don't feel the same way, and you don't want to lose that friend. Manipulative, but not unheard of at all, and that may be at work here in a non-traditional gender switch, but who knows? And it's not necessarily the kiss of death...in one case, the two people I knew actually ended up dating and getting married.

    Also, Anon, please don't take my marriag to a smoker to be indicative that I married her in any way because of that. Most of the women I have dated or desired have, in fact, been non-smokers. It just happens that in this case, the woman I fell in love with and got reciprocal feelings from was a smoker.

    All of us here can give advice and insight, but every fetishist is as different from each other as any other set of people with a common interest. Not all people who like bowling are alike, either.

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  15. AS I re-read your last comment and fully realized what you were saying, I do have some concerns about where this might go for you. Enough that even though my own blog is pro-smoking-fetish, I cancelled my scheduled post for today to do a cautionary one based on your tale here.

    In the spirit of the original topic of Perplexed's post, how do YOU want to be remembered? Do you want to be remembered as someone who was true to herself and made sure the guy was attracted to her...or do you want to do something just to attract/please him and risk that the object of attraction was the key and not you yourself.

    I would encourage you to be true to yourself. If you hit it off without the smoking, you can always revisit the idea of occasional smoking for him later. But be as sure as possible that it's you he wants first...and that his fetish isn't something that will be too consuming for either or you.

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  16. Smokedawg, your comments are spot-on. I want to give kudos to you for the points that you make, and I agree with you 100%.

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  17. You guys have given me a lot to think about. Smokedawg... I appreciate your comment about not all bowlers being the same and I would not want to stereotype you in any way. That said, I do feel that there may be tendencies amoung groups of people with certain fetishes. For example, people who want to be spanked are - as a group - a little different psychologically from those that want to spank. This, of course is a vast generalization. But reading this blog and your comments has been very helpful for me to try to think maturely about my friends concerns, needs, and weaknesses.

    This guy and I are older and we were both born to parents in their 40's. There has been a shift in my lifetime from smoking being something that children and teenagers were told "bad girls" do to something that is just plain "bad for you". I am from the former era. Matt mentioned the Madonna/Whore thing. That resonated with me. I feel like I am unfortunately in the Madonna category in this relationship. Usually when a guy is not that into you it is possible to simply not return his calls and that is it. This guy tried to have sex with me on our third date. I told him I did not have sex outside of an emotionally commited relationship and I did not know him well enough. Looking back I think he heard, "I am not that kind of girl." This guy has been the one to call, pay, email, and text me much more than visa-versa during our whole relationship. Also, he came on so strong early-on that I was the one to say I wanted to be "just friends". After this there was a period where he really pursued me and I worried a little that he was going to get stalk-ish. This subsided... perhaps because he found someone else to date for a while. I think - at least with some older guys with this fetish - there may be a "nice girls don't smoke or have sex" and "bad girls smoke and have sex" element.

    Unfortunately I am not a Madonna or a whore. I am a woman who wants an emotionally fulfilling sexual relationship with a man I have gotten to know, trust and care about who cares about me and respects me as a sexual adult.

    Matt also mentioned something about the guy needing to have the maturity to intellectually engage about his own sexuality. I agree. I have had male friends to whom I was not attracted. I NEVER invited them into my bed or walked around half-naked in front of them. When he returns from his trip I am going to have to tell him that I cannot sleep in his bed anymore. He will NOT like that and my gut feeling is that he will fight with me irrationally and start pursuing me in spades again. Since I now care about him this will be especially unpleasant and frustrating for me.

    I have to admit that initially I posted here in part because I did not want to talk with a girlfriend about my discovery and reveal something that might be very private for this guy - but I needed to discuss it. I feel that this thread has been much more useful for me than talking to a girlfriend would have been... which would probably have just devolved into how difficult men are to understand without coming to any course of action. Thanks.

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  18. Well, Anon, I for one am very glad that there are some places now where you can get some insight into the "fetish mind" where it's not just about some porn or fantasies or naughty fiction (as nice as those things are, too...LOL). So, I have much respect for Perplexed and others like Vesparae and Closetfascination out there who want to encourage some deep thought.

    Heck, I've been surprised to see how much commentary I do at my blog, when I thought I would really be concentrating almost solely on the erotic fiction angle.

    Relationships are hard, whether trying to start them or keeping them strong. All my prayers/best wishes/psychic support (take your pick) as you move through this, whehter things work out with him or with someone else. We all deserve to have the right person for us in life; a shame that finding such people is so much work.

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